tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post8597569896862054155..comments2024-03-17T18:54:39.209+08:00Comments on Singapore Sparrows: Rules of Singapore Style Mahjong: List of Scoring ElementsEPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-42628787557026738052014-12-30T23:51:00.620+08:002014-12-30T23:51:00.620+08:00Pat,
Thank you for your interest! I have cut down...Pat,<br /><br />Thank you for your interest! I have cut down on teaching activities as I have been really too busy recently.<br /><br />If you are interested anyway, do contact me directly for more details.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-82596783951797206322014-11-09T03:03:14.843+08:002014-11-09T03:03:14.843+08:00hi edwin
where do you teach now? i'm very kee...hi edwin <br />where do you teach now? i'm very keen and i'm a beginner! thanks<br />patAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252567088115855587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-4249378005215302072014-06-18T23:34:26.090+08:002014-06-18T23:34:26.090+08:00Dear Gary,
Thank you for your comment.
Yes, I am...Dear Gary,<br /><br />Thank you for your comment.<br /><br />Yes, I am very well aware of Classical Chinese rules and of Zung Jung.<br /><br />And yes, it is also true that people had haphazardly learnt mahjong in the past, which accounts for the many odd variants and house rules in use, and which had organically evolved into distinct variants. But in modern times, there has been a lot of standardisation efforts of these regional variants.<br /><br />You brought up Japanese mahjong, whose <i>riichi</i> variant still faithfully counts <i>fu/han</i>, but the practices has been codified with the establishment of professional organisations that guide the practice of millions of players. There is a culture in Japan where ordinary players look to professionals and professional organisations for advice and rulings. If there are rule variants, these are clearly stated (whether <i>kuikae ari</i> or <i>kuikae nashi</i>, for example, or <i>kuitan ari</i> and so on. If one wants to learn mahjong in Japan, there are many books to learn from, all of which agree on the basic fundamentals of the Japanese variant.<br /><br />In Singapore, however, it is still in the dark ages, where sets of people really disagree on some basic rules that we want to call Singapore Style. For example, some Singaporeans may think they are playing Singapore Style, but are actually playing Hong Kong Style, or Malaysian Style, and they do not know the difference at all. How to, when there is so little information out there?<br /><br />Just the topic of the Singapore Style pinghu can illuminate the problems of learning mahjong haphazardly. I am not sure exactly how many people you encounter, but I have met many, in the course of my teaching, refereeing, and playing mahjong, who do not even know that <i>pinghu</i> has certain constraints on the wait. These, as you note, come from the Classical Chinese system. The exact commonly agreed constraints allow waiting on the eye as long as it is more than one-sided, and no other forms of special waits (Single Wait, Closed Wait, Edge Wait). Note that the Single Wait is not the same as Fishing the Eye, so the confusion between these two conditions may have lead to the way Singapore Style allows multi-sided waits for eyes, but other versions (such as Japanese <i>riichi</i>) do not.<br /><br />Yet, I have met a lot of people who do not know that such a requirement for <i>pinghu</i> exists, even as participants in competitions!<br /><br />Do we want to just shrug our shoulders and say, "OK what, haphazard haphazard lah! Why care?" Or do we want to do something about that?<br /><br />So, to me, leaving things as they are, even if some things have been learnt traditionally, but have a wrong basis, is not a good solution at all. Wrong things have to be corrected if we want standardisation.<br /><br />But on the other hand, there is a lot of inertia towards such change. There is thus no surprise that the Chinese opted to create a whole new standard to avoid conflict with the dozens of regional variants in China.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-92138895641237921812014-06-18T22:21:50.119+08:002014-06-18T22:21:50.119+08:00I will not say only Singapore learn mahjong haphaz...I will not say only Singapore learn mahjong haphazardly, in fact basically all regional( even variations within a nation) Mahjong rules evolved haphazardly as well; because none of them use probability to assign the right amount of points/Fu/Faan etc based on difficulties of the hand ( except perhaps Zung Jung).<br /><br />As for wining within first turn, there are basically 3 type:<br /><br />Heavenly Hand(天胡): Win by dealer by first self-draw(Kong is not allow).<br /><br />Earthly Hand(地胡): Win by dealer first discard.<br /><br />Humanly Hand(人胡): Win by discard within the first turn without any exposed meld form by everyone.<br /><br />As for Humanly Hand(人胡), most regional Mahjong rules does not have this, but Korean & some Japanese have it in their Mahjong rule.<br /><br />In Sg rules , they just combined Earthly Hand(地胡) & Humanly Hand(人胡)called it as Earthly Hand(地胡)as both are wins by discard within the first turn.<br /><br />As for where Humanly Hand(人胡) come from, is anyone guess, it could be from Chinese Classical Mahjong rules in the early last century whereby all regional Mahjong rules evolved from. <br /><br />After all, even in China at that time, there are regional variation of Mahjong rules as well.<br /> <br /> Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17903794052984670894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-89804863495222987772014-06-18T21:02:55.607+08:002014-06-18T21:02:55.607+08:00Gary(previously Anonymous) :
If you say Singapore...Gary(previously Anonymous) :<br /><br />If you say Singapore learn mahjong haphazardly then I would say basically everyone learn mahjong haphazardly too.<br /><br />The reason is because basically every single regional evolution of mahjong have never considered probability to assign the right amount of points/faan/fu etc in term of difficulties.( Accept perhaps Zung Jung).<br /><br />To understand the different regional variations of mahjong, one must first understand Classical Mahjong Rules that were used in the early last century in China whereby I believe that all regional Mahjong Rules evolved from there till today different regional variations of mahjong.<br /><br />In Classical Mahjong Rules, it is using Fu/Faan for scoring whereby it will assign certain amount of Fu to certain meld, and then double, quadruple it etc for certain scoring hands.<br /><br />For Fu in Classical Mahjong Rules, Triplet melds has has Fu value, concealed Triplet has higher value, and Kong are even higher value.<br /><br />For Sequence melds in Classical Mahjong Rules, basically no Fu value at all. In fact, Peng Hu actually means Ordinary Hand with no Fu value. <br /><br />Only later stage of development, it was assign Fu value to Peng Hu.<br /><br />Anyway, Fu/Faan system which the Japanese are still using is a very complicated way of calculating points which eventually some regions abolished Fu and only using Faan only.<br /><br />Sg adopted this as well but with some different as compare to others.<br /><br />For example, Kong in SG rules is immediate payment due to the Fu value in the older Fu/Faan system whereas for example HK old style which is also using Faan only system don't have such rule.<br /><br />As for Peng Hu, there are also regional difference.<br /><br />In SG, Peng Hu must not be a Single Wait Hand, & this was also due to Fu/Faan system of Classical Mahjong Rules whereby Single Wait Hand(Edge wait, Closed wait etc) has Fu value.<br /><br />So when there is a Single Wait Hand as well as Peng Hu, in Classical Mahjong Rules, Peng Hu's Fu value will not be considered.<br /><br />And this rule remain in SG Faan only system mahjong rules.<br /><br />Anyway, I get all my info from Alan Kwan's Zung Jung official website:<br /><br />http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/Mahjong/ZungJung/index.html<br /><br />It has 3 different languages of it, but the Chinese version has more articles, especially about Chinese Classical Mahjong rules.<br /><br />http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/Mahjong/ZungJung/book_hk/Table%20of%20Contents.html<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17903794052984670894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-58918065235980114782014-06-10T15:00:26.709+08:002014-06-10T15:00:26.709+08:00Thank you, Anonymous, for your input.
What I see ...Thank you, Anonymous, for your input.<br /><br />What I see in your comment is more evidence that people in Singapore learn mahjong haphazardly and play a lot of house rules that deviate from common practice elsewhere.<br /><br />The fact that mahjong is disencouraged in public discourse (unlike, say, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan) also means that there is no tradition of documenting and researching mahjong in Singapore. There are so few books on mahjong as played in Singapore, and there is no governing body to help reach a consensus on any rule.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-71990559156062838382014-05-06T00:05:47.266+08:002014-05-06T00:05:47.266+08:00Some comment on Earthly Hand(Di Hu) that is in SG ...Some comment on Earthly Hand(Di Hu) that is in SG style MJ.<br /><br />For most variation internationally:<br /><br />Earthly Hand(Di Hu):<br />Win by dealer first discard, dealer must not have concealed Kong before that.<br /><br />But in SG style MJ, Earthly Hand is actually more like Humanly Hand. Whereby<br /><br />Humanly Hand(Ren Hu):<br />Win by discard by other player during the 1st turn of the deal before the player has his first discard.<br /><br />No exposed meld is allow before that.<br /><br />So when you ask some old folk about Earthly Hand, they will probably tell you something more like Humanly Hand.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-64000387764004867212013-05-17T13:19:38.341+08:002013-05-17T13:19:38.341+08:00mahjong kaki, thank you for your input! Do you pla...mahjong kaki, thank you for your input! Do you play with a 5-double limit only or a system with 5-double limit and bonuses for extra doubles bonus beyond the limit?EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-74851534023265926202013-05-13T12:27:45.890+08:002013-05-13T12:27:45.890+08:00Hi, at my side 小四喜 and 大四喜 are both max limit, due...Hi, at my side 小四喜 and 大四喜 are both max limit, due to their similar difficulties<br /><br />this is quite coincident with the standard Singapore mahjong rule<br /><br />mahjong kakinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-1093633129232687612012-10-09T22:35:15.655+08:002012-10-09T22:35:15.655+08:00ogiuemaniax, thank you for your comment.
As your ...ogiuemaniax, thank you for your comment.<br /><br />As your question is a little complex, I will address it in a proper post, which then allows subsequent comments and discussion under the pertinent topic.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-40252483156296609282012-10-09T14:14:54.726+08:002012-10-09T14:14:54.726+08:00I am someone who primarily plays Japanese mahjong,...I am someone who primarily plays Japanese mahjong, but over the past year or so I've become increasingly interested in other forms of mahjong, if only to see what variety exists out there. In this time, I've had the chance to play Singapore-style online, whether against computers or human opponents (on Viwawa if you know that site), and I just wanted to ask someone more familiar with the game to see if my observations are at all accurate.<br /><br />Coming from Japanese-style, I find the most significant difference to not be so much the lack of riichi or even the animal tiles (though they do contribute to a different experience), but the relative lack of low fan/tai hands. Things like tanyao (all simples) and iipeikou (two of the same sequence) don't exist in Singapore mahjong, and so I feel like the hands are more inflexible, that they don't flow into each other quite as easily. <br /><br />As a result, it seems like you have to decide from the very beginning where you want your hand to go and that, unless you draw a relevant bonus tile, you have to stick to your path much more diligently, whether that's an all sequences hand or starting out with two honor tiles and planning around getting the third or aiming for a half flush.<br /><br />I see that there is the possibiliy of increasing the tai minimum in order to make the game more challenging, but my opinion (based on my limited experience) is that high tai requirements are not suitable for Singapore Mahjong because of the relatively small amount of available hands. Unlike MCR especially where there are so many hands that you can realistically stack many of them together to meet more difficult fan requirements, I feel like anything more than a 2 tai minimum in Singapore Mahjong may make the game overly stiff and unwieldy, though whether the minimum is better at 1 or 2 is something I'm undecided on.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for hearing me out. I don't pretend to be an expert in even my own preferred mahjong, so I'm looking forward to a response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-2095972738245168682012-09-07T02:45:16.459+08:002012-09-07T02:45:16.459+08:00Hello Anonymous,
What you mention ("Gang Sha...Hello Anonymous,<br /><br />What you mention ("Gang Shang Mei" and "Hai Di Lau Yue") are indeed valid scoring elements <i>per se</i>, but these are not used in Singapore Style mahjong, as far as I know, the context being the wide community of Singapore Style players and the tournaments that use Singapore Style rules. It is possible to encounter the scoring elements as described by you in certain groups, but then these are of low occurrence, and I would classify them as house rules, rather than common rules.<br /><br />These two scoring elements may be more accepted in other styles of mahjong (for example, Chinese Classical [Millington] or Hong Kong Old Style [Amy Lo]). In fact, looking at Amy Lo's book on Hong Kong Old Style, she lists the two scoring elements, but assigns them just 3 <i>fan</i> each, so they are nothing near Limit Hands. Millington, for Chinese Classical, does assign the value of Limit Hands for these two, but given that Chinese Classical is quite a different sort of scoring, such values are not very comparable to Singapore Style mahjong.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-28277059080866384112012-08-24T11:43:50.361+08:002012-08-24T11:43:50.361+08:00i heard there are more limit sequence for eg. &quo...i heard there are more limit sequence for eg. "Gang Shang Mei" and " Hai Di Lau Yue"<br /><br />"Gang Shang Mei" refers to : Kong(4 Of the same kind) and draw and game with 5 Tong (circles). this must be completed by gaming 5 Tong (circles) in between 4Tong (Circles) and 6 Tong(Circles). 5 tong needs to be shown to all players for fair play purpose<br /><br />"Hai Di Lau Yue" refers to: gaming 1 tong(circle) by drawing the very last tile from deck. this only applicable to 1 tong (circle). usually gaming from the last tile will add 1 double to own sequence but this differ from "Hai Di Lau Yue"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-82365479431211530932012-08-14T21:28:18.416+08:002012-08-14T21:28:18.416+08:00杠上杠和 refers to a sequence where two kongs are made...杠上杠和 refers to a sequence where two <i>kongs</i> are made consecutively, followed by a winning hand. So, basically the sequence is: <i>kong</i>, pick replacement tile, <i>kong</i>, pick replacement tile, <i>hu</i>.<br /><br />Two consecutive <i>kongs</i> only do not give a win straight away. The hand itself must be completed by the second placement tile.<br /><br />The special feature of this scoring element lies in the rarity and difficulty of making two consecutive <i>kongs</i> followed by a win off the replacement tile. It is thus rewarded with a limit hand value, even though the hand itself may have no doubles.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-22988141405930003622012-08-14T18:01:36.968+08:002012-08-14T18:01:36.968+08:00what is the meaning of "gang shang gang shang...what is the meaning of "gang shang gang shang hu"? please enlightenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-18762747003642891672012-05-29T12:15:53.703+08:002012-05-29T12:15:53.703+08:00daas and Alexander, thank you for your comments!daas and Alexander, thank you for your comments!EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-85007603262662506522012-05-25T16:40:25.131+08:002012-05-25T16:40:25.131+08:00Hi EP,
You write good english and I appreciate it...Hi EP,<br /><br />You write good english and I appreciate it greatly. I am currently located near Nee Soon CC and would love to learn and play SG Mahjong. I will check out the PA website later!<br /><br />Again, great blog!<br /><br />Regards,<br />AlexanderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-47016574078923830612012-05-21T13:43:11.050+08:002012-05-21T13:43:11.050+08:00I dont mind joining such an organizationI dont mind joining such an organizationdaashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05541481223238900812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-57604163528423040132012-05-02T23:20:54.652+08:002012-05-02T23:20:54.652+08:00Thank you for your comment, hengyx.
I believe tha...Thank you for your comment, hengyx.<br /><br />I believe that a national association for mahjong is not impossible, but it may take a little more time for such a body to be set up. There must be enough passionate people who are keen to play mahjong as a sport rather than as a medium for gambling.<br /><br />I think the point about mahjong competitions for gambling is an interesting one. I know many people would not mind playing in competitions. Often, local competitions offer some kind of prizes (usually vouchers of some sort, but sometimes prizes like mahjong sets and household electronics etc.). I would say that people are unlikely to use competitions as a substitute for gambling; it is simply not worth their time and effort. Moreover, actual gambling can be difficult when one is playing with strangers who do not share the same mindset.<br /><br />Also, I also believe that if a person is playing mahjong for the sake of the thrill of gambling, then that person is at the wrong activity. For the real thrills, there is the casino. Mahjong, for all its purported evils, is a relatively slow game. One is very unlikely to lose a lot of money in a short time by playing mahjong. The thrill does not come from the gambling <i>per se</i>, but from the excitement of winning and losing big hands (and that compared to real gambling at the casino is really just peanuts).<br /><br />Re: Competitions and gambling. This brings to mind something I and a few others have observed from participating at local competitions. Competitions involve a large number of players, and to win at a mahjong competition means a player must perform much better than his opponents. However, competitiors with a gambling mindset most often do not perform well at all: i.e. they play as if they are just trying to keep a positive score, and just keep going for cheap, quick hands. In knock-out competition formats, these are the players most likely to be knocked out right at the first stage. So, one cannot simply bring a gambling-oriented mindset to a competition.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-79344929447520851992012-05-02T19:19:58.168+08:002012-05-02T19:19:58.168+08:00Totally agree. Though I think there should be an o...Totally agree. Though I think there should be an official Mahjong Association in Singapore which will be great so to regulate and organize competitions here, it's nearly impossible due to the social stigma associated with Mahjong especially since the culture of Mahjong in these areas have been predominantly gambling.<br /><br />I also believe people will misuse any mahjong competition as a front for gambling since after all most people here do still play for the thrill of gambling instead for competitiveness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-68114980618647734302012-05-01T14:27:26.732+08:002012-05-01T14:27:26.732+08:00Thanks for your comment, hengyx!
Yes, I agree tha...Thanks for your comment, hengyx!<br /><br />Yes, I agree that it is sad that people here only play mahjong as a form of gambling, but I also believe that it is because no organisation here tries to promote it as a viable mind-sport.<br /><br />Look at the various mahjong organisations in Japan, the World Mahjong Organisation in China, and the European Mahjong Association and its member organisations in Europe. These organisations 'take charge' by organising non-gambling competitions and regular club activities, people will find that mahjong is indeed a valid and acceptable hobby that does not have to involve gambling.<br /><br />Anyway, if you are interested, you can contact me (leave your email address in a comment; it will not become visible for public view) for more information. I coordinate and conduct practice classes/sessions at CCs around Singapore. Such sessions are meant for relaxed playing and learning, without any gambling (CCs do not permit gambling on their premises after all). Currently confined to just Singapore Style mahjong and MCR though. For <i>riichi</i>, there are some individuals I know who are interested to put together sessions, so I can link you up with them.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-1579773394406657782012-04-30T22:22:02.087+08:002012-04-30T22:22:02.087+08:00It's so sad most people in Singapore play Mahj...It's so sad most people in Singapore play Mahjong as a form of gambling and very few of my friends actually play it as a form of competitive game (eg Contact Bridge) when there is no money involve. <br /><br />Went to Tokyo once and played in one of their Mahjong Parlors. There was no gambling allowed but your placing out of the four players actually determine how much you have to pay per match for I guess using their facilities and all and due to free flow of drinks lol.<br /><br />Anyway I enjoy playing Singapore Mahjong but I love Japanese Mahjong more due to it being very flexible and defensive styled play. Still figuring out how to count points efficently especially for hands under 5 han since I cant grapple the fu and han multiplication tables for points very well yet lol.<br /><br />Just hoping if there is any group out there that organises Gambling Free mahjong gatherings (best if its Richii Mahjong, can practice more in RL and gain experience lol) and wouldn't mind a young player, I am only 19, coming 20 this year lol.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-67666076066052913752012-01-08T00:16:39.092+08:002012-01-08T00:16:39.092+08:00MrFeng, it seems to be the CC policy that there is...MrFeng, it seems to be the CC policy that there is an age limit, probably to combat public perception that the CCs may be endorsing gambling and encouraging young children to learn how to gamble, but it does not address the contradiction that gambling (say, betting at Singapore Pools) is legal for 18-year-olds and above. Anyway, this age restriction policy does not seem to be enforced strictly. I have had students/participants younger than 21 years of age. Since I view mahjong as a healthy mind-sport, I have no qualms about accepting younger students/participants, as long as such participants know what they are in for.<br /><br />By the way, if you already know mahjong, you should be looking at the practice classes.EPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799102130509323627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-10949575740877140262012-01-07T18:08:43.425+08:002012-01-07T18:08:43.425+08:00hey EP, i've checked up the mahjong courses in...hey EP, i've checked up the mahjong courses in onePA and realised one of them has a min age req of 21. why's that so?MrFenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570890248428369493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8803216213784962655.post-87096821386746502842012-01-03T00:33:29.437+08:002012-01-03T00:33:29.437+08:00ok thanks EP. I'ma consider giving it a try so...ok thanks EP. I'ma consider giving it a try soon<br /><br />yes, i'm a fan of jmahjong now LoL what do you mean by 'your group'?<br />contact me at 91766611<br /><br />and wow, you're a japanese, i just realised.MrFenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570890248428369493noreply@blogger.com